Feb 07 18:30:34 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Intro Session - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for more information. Feb 07 18:30:50 yeah, could be. Feb 07 18:30:56 Anyhow, welcome everyone! Feb 07 18:31:24 I just want to give a short intro and talk about how classes work Feb 07 18:31:45 First, all the sessions are listed at the wiki link in the topic. Feb 07 18:32:14 tonight we have 4 great classes for everyone Feb 07 18:32:27 at 01:45 UTC Understanding RPM - The engine behind yum - Clint Savage (herlo) Feb 07 18:32:40 at 03:00 UTC Using Yum - Tricks and tips - Kevin Fenzi (nirik, ie, me) Feb 07 18:32:52 at 04:15 UTC Fedora 11 Features - Jon Stanley ( jds2001 ) Feb 07 18:33:02 at 05:30 UTC Fedora i18n - Jens Petersen ( juhp ) Feb 07 18:33:24 We will have a 15min break between each class for folks to get up and walk around and such. ;) Feb 07 18:34:02 Each talk the teacher may want you to just jump in with questions or hold them until the end, they will let you know which they prefer. Feb 07 18:34:18 * yunustj wished those class would start at 06:00, so he could attend those sessions Feb 07 18:34:29 logs from the classes will be uploaded to the wiki page if you want to look over them later if you cannot attend. Feb 07 18:35:25 Finally, if anyone is interested in teaching a class, feel free to see me or herlo... we are always looking for teachers. You don't need to be an expert, just willing to teach others something you know. Feb 07 18:35:45 nirik: thanks for being so willing to do this, it's been a great learning experience for me and I'm sure many others :) Feb 07 18:35:58 No problem. :) Feb 07 18:36:09 anyone have any questions on the setup or format? Feb 07 18:36:30 I hope many who learn this week will come and help us next month on March 7 & 8 (You can also sign up on the wiki too) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom Feb 07 18:36:52 --> mj0vy1 (n=mj0vy@123.239.4.2) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:36:53 we are also open to suggestions for class topics. You can add those to the wishlist on the wiki as well. Feb 07 18:37:52 also the archives of older talks are linked from the wiki page. Feb 07 18:40:11 --> jjmcd (n=jjmcd@75-134-169-186.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:40:12 --- yunustj is now known as yunustj_afk Feb 07 18:41:09 * herlo is jonesing to start already, anybody around? Feb 07 18:41:17 it's only a couple minutes early... Feb 07 18:41:19 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Understanding RPM - The engine behind yum with your teacher Clint Savage (herlo) - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for tonights schedule of classes. Feb 07 18:41:55 * jds2001 is here Feb 07 18:42:14 --> JonCruz (n=joncruz@adsl-76-246-93-218.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:42:17 --> vaughan (n=vaughan@ppp121-44-227-60.lns1.per1.internode.on.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:42:19 * nirik is here. Hopefull some of the other folks in channel are awake. Feb 07 18:42:22 Hi all... My name is Clint Savage, I am a Fedora Ambassador in North America and am an experienced Linux Instructor... Feb 07 18:42:28 * mj0vy1 is ready.. Feb 07 18:42:31 --> VileGent (n=notfred@fedora/Southern-Gentleman) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:42:51 been teaching linux for 3 years now, have taught for RH (as a contractor) and other companies including IBM, HP, etc... Feb 07 18:42:57 * herlo is now down pimping his resume :) Feb 07 18:43:19 So I'd like to start by talking about RPM, it's basic benefits and why it's important to the world. Feb 07 18:43:41 RPM - Originally stood for Red Hat Package Manager, now dually named RPM Package Manager Feb 07 18:43:42 --> subfusc (n=sin@kri3-1x-dhcp147.studby.uio.no) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:43:59 is essentially to help manage loads of files, including binaries, configuration and documentations... Feb 07 18:44:04 in one easy way. Feb 07 18:44:27 of course, there are other package management systems. And many distributions use RPM as their package management system. Feb 07 18:44:35 DPKG, that's the Debian way... Feb 07 18:44:41 Ubuntu uses this as well Feb 07 18:44:49 <-- Guest123 has quit (Connection timed out) Feb 07 18:44:53 Ports, from the BSD family Feb 07 18:45:01 Portage is part of the gentoo system Feb 07 18:45:16 there's one called conary, which is pretty new, from the Foresight folks... Feb 07 18:45:57 the benefits of packaging are quite large, but essentially, it makes it easy to contain all the files that belong to a particular application... Feb 07 18:46:23 RPM has a small database (I still believe its berkeley db) Feb 07 18:46:27 located in /var/lib/rpm Feb 07 18:46:47 and each of the files in there are __db.00* which represent the RPM database... Feb 07 18:47:08 which makes it easy for RPM to query and find out what has and hasn't been installed... Feb 07 18:47:31 --> fenris02 (n=dj@cpe-70-113-121-246.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:47:35 there is also the *rpm* command, which is the core functionality of how rpm works... Feb 07 18:47:45 which is what we'll mainly talk about in this class... Feb 07 18:48:16 rpm can install, verify and query existing packages as well as packages we wish to install. Feb 07 18:48:36 rpm can also fix problems where yum can't and hopefully we'll get a chance to talk about these corner cases Feb 07 18:48:42 <-- vaughan has quit ("A closed mouth gathers no feat") Feb 07 18:48:57 another thing, one that most people don't realize, but rpm can do dependency resolution. Feb 07 18:49:15 and that's a little tricky, but we'll talk about dependency resolution later on... Feb 07 18:49:33 to start off with, I like to talk about rpm and how it can install packages, as well as upgrade and remove packages. Feb 07 18:49:51 then we'll move to querying the database and packages... Feb 07 18:50:26 the simplest way to install a package is to use rpm -i Feb 07 18:50:37 something like this Feb 07 18:50:47 rpm -i zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 18:51:01 <-- Guest456 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 18:51:16 assuming that the rpm database doesn't have zsh-html already installed, it will verify this package and then install all the files associated with this package Feb 07 18:52:28 if you are interested in following along with this package, you can download it at Feb 07 18:52:31 http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/rpms/zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 18:52:43 it is the file that is also included in the current F10 base repository... Feb 07 18:53:06 doing that install yields pretty much no output Feb 07 18:54:16 and the package is in stalled Feb 07 18:54:26 but the real question is what does that benefit us... Feb 07 18:54:26 --> Falstius (n=jeff@c-98-243-65-184.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:54:41 and it's really simple, we now have the documentation for the zshell installed. Feb 07 18:55:11 how do we erase an rpm? Feb 07 18:55:17 well, that's rpm -e Feb 07 18:55:32 prety straightforward as well, but there is one catch, let's try that now... Feb 07 18:55:46 # rpm -e zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 18:55:47 error: package zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm is not installed Feb 07 18:55:55 hmm, I wonder why that happened :) Feb 07 18:55:58 any thoughts? Feb 07 18:56:04 .rpm Feb 07 18:56:23 brunowolff: dig a little deeper there, you're right Feb 07 18:56:34 the .rpm implies that we're trying to uninstall the rpm file, it's not what we ant Feb 07 18:56:38 want Feb 07 18:56:56 instead, what we want is Feb 07 18:57:05 # rpm -e zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386 Feb 07 18:57:11 and that will erase the package Feb 07 18:57:16 but this would also work Feb 07 18:57:20 # rpm -e zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9 Feb 07 18:57:21 and this Feb 07 18:57:23 # rpm -e zsh-html-4.3.4-8 Feb 07 18:57:25 and this Feb 07 18:57:28 # rpm -e zsh-html Feb 07 18:57:44 because the way that rpm works, versioning is based upon several things Feb 07 18:57:53 the version 4.3.4-8 Feb 07 18:57:59 the release fc9 Feb 07 18:58:07 the architecture i386 Feb 07 18:58:30 you'll find that there is only one zsh-html package and normally this is what you want... Feb 07 18:58:53 I can also install or upgrade an rpm package... Feb 07 18:58:56 ? cant we install with http as well Feb 07 18:58:57 that's rpm -U Feb 07 18:59:04 VileGent: indeed, we're getting there :) Feb 07 18:59:12 VileGent: you can also install over ftp or http actually Feb 07 18:59:24 so that http package I provided earlier would be a good way to go... Feb 07 18:59:25 try this Feb 07 18:59:34 rpm -U http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/rpms/zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 18:59:42 ! Feb 07 18:59:43 --> nuonguy (n=john@c-24-6-174-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 18:59:51 mj0vy1: please go ahead :) Feb 07 19:00:03 When I install, I am getting this error "Header V3 DSA signature: NOKEY, key ID 4ebfc273", but it installs eventually Feb 07 19:00:17 mj0vy1: that's not an error, but we'll talk aobut that a little further on Feb 07 19:00:33 ok Feb 07 19:00:37 if I don't cover it, let me know and I'll answer it in the q&a section Feb 07 19:00:56 alright.. Feb 07 19:00:56 okay, so you've installed and removed a package, let me include one somewhat deprecated option Feb 07 19:01:00 rpm -F Feb 07 19:01:08 -F stands for freshen, or update only Feb 07 19:01:33 it allowed administrators to run an rpm -F *rpm and *only* upgrade packages that are installed on the system Feb 07 19:01:57 Deprecated? Feb 07 19:02:00 no packages that were in that directory (glob) that weren't already installed would not get installed Feb 07 19:02:06 (it should be mentioned that -F views .i386 and .i686 as "the same" so use sparingly) Feb 07 19:02:16 Is there some better way to do what it does in rpm? Feb 07 19:02:19 brunowolff: it's still fully functional, but it's been recommended against and isn't that useful Feb 07 19:02:45 brunowolff: no, that's why it's still there Feb 07 19:03:10 fenris02: as does all rpm unless you specify it (iirc) Feb 07 19:03:11 --> mdious (n=mmcallis@nat/redhat/x-6faa30e335933f88) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 19:03:34 okay, so for now, pretend that -F is something you use sparingly as fenris02 pointed out :) Feb 07 19:03:54 a couple other switches that are handy, -v verbose -h hash marks Feb 07 19:03:56 so try this Feb 07 19:04:00 rpm -e zsh-html Feb 07 19:04:22 rpm -Uvh http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/rpms/zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 19:04:39 rpm -Uvh http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/rpms/zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 19:04:42 Retrieving http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/rpms/zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 19:04:45 Preparing... ########################################### [100%] 1:zsh-html ########################################### [100%] Feb 07 19:05:32 as you do this install, you'll notice that there's a new percentage [50%] field and some new hash marks to show the progress Feb 07 19:06:04 these are useful, especially when you are installing many packages at once... Feb 07 19:06:41 I also wanted to mention that if you insall over ftp, it can use globbing, like * or ? in the url Feb 07 19:07:06 so you could do something like this rpm -Uvh 'http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/rpms/zsh*' Feb 07 19:07:34 and if there was zsh and zsh-html packages, it would install both (or upgrade) Feb 07 19:08:06 questions? Feb 07 19:08:22 okay, moving forward... Feb 07 19:08:26 Is there a way to update and delete at the same time? Feb 07 19:08:34 in what sense? Feb 07 19:08:51 brunowolff: you want to update one package and remove another? Feb 07 19:09:20 Sometimes you need to delete one package in order to install another one, but you can't delete it first because of dependencies. Feb 07 19:09:35 Think of handling obsoletes. Feb 07 19:09:43 brunowolff: well, that's a more advanced question, but we'll talk about --force and --nodeps near the end of this conversation... Feb 07 19:09:51 however, there is one point I should make Feb 07 19:09:53 if all the deps are provided on the same rpm line, it'll work. Feb 07 19:10:02 right Feb 07 19:10:12 but here's my other point... Feb 07 19:10:25 But --force may not work correctly with scripts. It would be nice to do it in one transaction. Feb 07 19:10:42 <-- rtnpro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 19:10:51 brunowolff: let's address that in the q&a because I want to get to your specific request... Feb 07 19:11:27 but there's something else here, when you upgrade a package, the old package is removed and the new installed. Feb 07 19:12:09 okay, so I have two things I need to address at the end :) Feb 07 19:12:15 moving to querying... Feb 07 19:12:47 to start with, let's talk about querying the rpm database and asking for the list of all packages installed Feb 07 19:12:50 rpm -qa Feb 07 19:12:58 I liked to do Feb 07 19:13:01 rpm -qa | wc -l Feb 07 19:13:08 to see how many packages are installed on my machine Feb 07 19:13:55 another thing you can do is Feb 07 19:14:00 rpm -qa '*zsh*' Feb 07 19:14:22 I love to use this to search for any rpms that might match that pattern Feb 07 19:14:46 another thing to look at is just Feb 07 19:14:47 rpm -q Feb 07 19:15:03 # rpm -q zsh-html Feb 07 19:15:03 zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386 Feb 07 19:15:34 another is Feb 07 19:15:37 rpm -qi Feb 07 19:15:54 Name : zsh-html Relocations: (not relocatable) Feb 07 19:15:57 Version : 4.3.4 Vendor: Fedora Project Feb 07 19:16:00 Release : 8.fc9 Build Date: Thu 15 May 2008 10:17:38 PM MDT Feb 07 19:16:03 Install Date: Sat 07 Feb 2009 07:03:01 PM MST Build Host: xenbuilder2.fedora.redhat.com Feb 07 19:16:06 Group : System Environment/Shells Source RPM: zsh-4.3.4-8.fc9.src.rpm Feb 07 19:16:09 Size : 2197128 License: BSD Feb 07 19:16:12 Signature : DSA/SHA1, Tue 28 Oct 2008 11:31:09 PM MDT, Key ID bf226fcc4ebfc273 Feb 07 19:16:14 Packager : Fedora Project Feb 07 19:16:17 URL : http://zsh.sunsite.dk/ Feb 07 19:16:19 Summary : Zsh shell manual in html format Feb 07 19:16:22 Description : Feb 07 19:16:24 The zsh shell is a command interpreter usable as an interactive login Feb 07 19:16:27 shell and as a shell script command processor. Zsh resembles the ksh Feb 07 19:16:29 shell (the Korn shell), but includes many enhancements. Zsh supports Feb 07 19:16:32 command line editing, built-in spelling correction, programmable Feb 07 19:16:34 command completion, shell functions (with autoloading), a history Feb 07 19:16:37 mechanism, and more. Feb 07 19:16:39 This package contains the Zsh manual in html format. Feb 07 19:16:42 which provides the package information Feb 07 19:16:54 and rpm -ql Feb 07 19:17:06 rpm -ql zsh-html Feb 07 19:17:06 /usr/share/doc/zsh-html-4.3.4 Feb 07 19:17:06 /usr/share/doc/zsh-html-4.3.4/zsh.html Feb 07 19:17:07 /usr/share/doc/zsh-html-4.3.4/zsh_1.html Feb 07 19:17:11 ... snip ... Feb 07 19:17:17 there's a lot of files listed here... Feb 07 19:17:55 but there's a really cool one I like Feb 07 19:17:57 rpm -qf Feb 07 19:18:09 rpm -qf /bin/bash Feb 07 19:18:10 bash-3.2-30.fc10.i386 Feb 07 19:18:21 so you can do this for any rpm that's installed Feb 07 19:18:35 so try this one.... Feb 07 19:18:37 rpm -qf /bin/ls Feb 07 19:18:45 and you'll find out that it's not in the ls package Feb 07 19:19:36 coreutils-6.12-18.fc10.i386 Feb 07 19:20:02 also, you can check packages that aren't installed Feb 07 19:20:05 rpm -qp Feb 07 19:20:08 rpm -qlp Feb 07 19:20:14 rpm -qip Feb 07 19:20:24 will query the rpm file itself Feb 07 19:20:48 and give similar results to -q, -ql, -qi Feb 07 19:21:03 but for packages Feb 07 19:21:30 moving to answer mj0vy1's question Feb 07 19:21:34 verification... Feb 07 19:21:56 mj0vy1: when you installed your package you got the Header missing error right? Feb 07 19:22:38 that is because you don't have the RPM GPG keys installed... Feb 07 19:23:20 to install your RPM GPG keys, they are automatically provided by Fedora in /etc/pki/rpm-gpg Feb 07 19:23:46 --> quaid (n=quaid@fedora/quaid) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 19:23:50 now, you can also get these from the CD media or right on the actual installed system... Feb 07 19:24:30 to fix that issue, you may wish to run the following Feb 07 19:24:59 rpm --import RPM-GPG-KEY /etc/pki/tls/RPM-GPG-KEY-fedora Feb 07 19:25:14 and any others you'd like to install Feb 07 19:25:28 this will then allow you to verify the packages upon install Feb 07 19:26:29 and you can do that prior to installing the package with Feb 07 19:27:30 rpm -K zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm Feb 07 19:27:31 zsh-html-4.3.4-8.fc9.i386.rpm: (sha1) dsa sha1 md5 gpg OK Feb 07 19:27:54 noting the gpg md5 and everything there is okay Feb 07 19:28:13 you can do this with other rpm gpg keys and import things from other repos too... Feb 07 19:28:45 also, note that we're moving to sha256 digests likely in F12. Feb 07 19:29:01 cool Feb 07 19:29:05 jds2001: thanks for that Feb 07 19:29:16 moving to the final stuffs with verification Feb 07 19:29:24 you can use rpm -V to verify a particular package Feb 07 19:29:46 after it's installed Feb 07 19:30:15 if it returns an empty result, it's successful Feb 07 19:30:46 if you get an error, then something is wrong Feb 07 19:30:53 Not always. Feb 07 19:30:59 unless it's a config file change. ;) Feb 07 19:31:06 Some packages have scripts that modify what they install. Feb 07 19:31:08 good point Feb 07 19:31:23 brunowolff: such packages are broken by design :) Feb 07 19:31:35 unless it's a config file, obviosuly Feb 07 19:31:44 nirik: pam is a good example of the a config file changing Feb 07 19:31:45 Well there are a number of them. I have filed bug reports on some in the past. Feb 07 19:32:04 you can also verify package files, but I have never found a use for this Feb 07 19:32:07 that's done with Feb 07 19:32:09 rpm -Vp Feb 07 19:32:31 --- Guest453 is now known as SM0TVI Feb 07 19:32:38 so a couple points to wrap it up then q&a Feb 07 19:32:49 first off, when installing a kernel, never use -U with rpm Feb 07 19:33:01 always use rpm -i or use *yum* Feb 07 19:33:06 * herlo points to nirik's presentation Feb 07 19:33:06 <-- ningbojoe_ has quit ("Ex-Chat") Feb 07 19:33:29 another thing to talk about, I mentioned that rpm can do dependency resolutoin Feb 07 19:33:51 I read people mentioning that you have to put all the dependencies on one line of an rpm command, this is not true Feb 07 19:33:56 though it's the most common way Feb 07 19:34:12 if you wish to use rpm and do resolution, you'll need to do two basic things... Feb 07 19:34:47 * herlo doesn't know what happened to the rpmdb package, but recalls it was merged into rpm or soemthing, jds2001 ?? Feb 07 19:34:59 and you'll have to create a .rpmmacros file in your home directory Feb 07 19:35:07 i dont think so, i think it's gone. Feb 07 19:35:14 --aid never worked well anyways :) Feb 07 19:35:46 yeah, it worked fine for me in RHEL4 Feb 07 19:35:46 hmm, well anyway Feb 07 19:35:52 there's the .rpmmacros file Feb 07 19:35:53 %_solve_pkgsdir /path/to/installtree/RedHat/RPMS/ Feb 07 19:35:53 %_solve_name_fmt %{?_solve_pkgsdir}%%{NAME}-%%{VERSION}-%%{RELEASE}.%%{ARCH}.rpm Feb 07 19:35:53 yeah, in rhel it's still there i think. Feb 07 19:36:06 add these lines and you can point to the rpm dir and resolve it all Feb 07 19:36:08 rpmdb function was replaced by 'yum provides' iirc Feb 07 19:36:16 * nirik just thinks it's better to use yum now. ;) Feb 07 19:36:22 yes, I agree Feb 07 19:36:40 --> skorcher (n=SK@122.172.21.115) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 19:36:55 well, that's good to know about rpmdb Feb 07 19:37:44 so to address the --script question from brunowolff Feb 07 19:37:49 brunowolff: wanna bring that back up again... Feb 07 19:38:31 Yes Feb 07 19:39:05 The case I am talking about is where you want to replace a package with a different one, such as with obsoletes in yum. Feb 07 19:39:23 <-- viking-ice has quit ("Ex-Chat") Feb 07 19:39:52 If there is a dependency on the package being removed and it conflicts with the one being added it blocks doing the update one step at a time. Feb 07 19:39:54 could you give an example Feb 07 19:40:09 brunowolff: one choice might be --nodeps in that situation?? Feb 07 19:40:41 --nodeps and --force are last-resort options that frequently do more harm than good. Feb 07 19:40:49 I know I can force it, but if scripts are being run there could be problems. Feb 07 19:40:54 * nirik nods at fenris02's comment. Feb 07 19:41:13 --noscripts exists too if that's the issue. Feb 07 19:41:14 fenris02: --nodeps is somethign I use regularly to solve those problems. I'm a big fan of it when it comes to mono packages from OBS Feb 07 19:41:20 fenris02: good catch! Feb 07 19:41:24 lately I only do this if something is too broken for yum to handle, so it doesn't come up a lot. Feb 07 19:41:53 herlo, they have their use, but are frequently misused ime. Feb 07 19:42:22 fenris02: true, which is why it's discouraged Feb 07 19:42:28 No scripts doesn't run the scripts. That is usually even worse. Feb 07 19:42:31 and should be used with great caution Feb 07 19:43:01 any other questions? Feb 07 19:43:29 I would have expected to be able to do something like rpm -U packagenew.rpm -e packageold Feb 07 19:44:12 hmm, I don't think that's a good idea either, but I can see your desire... Feb 07 19:44:34 brunowolff, if the new package properly has an 'obsoletes: ' tag, that is not necessary Feb 07 19:45:05 Really? rpm will automatically remove an obsoleted package? Feb 07 19:45:21 brunowolff, yes. Feb 07 19:45:22 I thought I'd seen cases in the past when it didn't. Feb 07 19:45:32 brunowolff: a package can specify packages it replaces even if they don't have the same name. Feb 07 19:45:37 brunowolff, if they did not use an obsoletes: tag, it wont Feb 07 19:45:49 /win 34 Feb 07 19:45:52 lol Feb 07 19:45:56 * herlo has to head, thanks all Feb 07 19:45:58 Maybe what I saw where cases that were missing proper obsoletes definitions and would have broken yum as well. Feb 07 19:46:00 well, I see we are at end of time here... shall we wrap things up? Feb 07 19:46:00 enjoy the discussions... Feb 07 19:46:40 the next class starts in 15min or so... Using Yum - Tricks and tips - Kevin Fenzi (nirik) Feb 07 19:46:46 thanks herlo. nicely done. Feb 07 19:46:50 thanks herlo ! Feb 07 19:47:27 yeah, thanks! it has been interesting to watch! Feb 07 19:47:47 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - 15min break. Next class at 03:00UTC - see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for schedule of tonights classes. Feb 07 19:55:47 <-- JonCruz has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 07 19:56:31 <-- jjmcd (n=jjmcd@75-134-169-186.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com) has left #fedora-classroom ("Konversation terminated!") Feb 07 19:56:33 --> Guest123 (n=sm0tvi@c80-216-141-34.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #Fedora-Classroom Feb 07 20:00:01 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Using Yum - Tricks and tips with your teacher Kevin Fenzi (nirik) - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for schedule of tonights classes. Feb 07 20:00:21 Welcome everyone. Feb 07 20:00:38 I am going to be talking about yum and yum-utils and various utils around yum tonight. Feb 07 20:00:41 --> kaos01 (n=kaos01@turing.une.edu.au) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:00:48 --> jsubl2 (n=jsubl2@adsl-75-53-44-81.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:01:09 I'm happy to adjust the class based on what folks want to hear... otherwise I will start out with some basic info about yum and go from there. Feb 07 20:01:43 That sounds good to me, nirik Feb 07 20:01:43 So, what is yum? It's a command line package management utility. Feb 07 20:02:16 --> suyashkmr (n=SK@122.172.7.162) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:02:36 You will need to open up a terminal and 'su' to become root to use many of yums commands/options Feb 07 20:02:44 --> franciscod_ (n=Ankur@122.172.7.162) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:02:56 First, there are a set of basic commands with yum itself: Feb 07 20:03:01 yum check-update Feb 07 20:03:02 --> mib_beksxo5f (i=d2d40556@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8ea42f10e65370af) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:03:35 will check to see if there are newer packages that have been updated by fedora (or any other repositories you have defined) and list them. Feb 07 20:03:55 yum install packagename Feb 07 20:04:27 will install packagename if it's available from any of the repositories you have enabled. It will also install any packages that are needed by that one to function (dependencies). Feb 07 20:04:42 it's worth noting that it will ask you if you still want to install it after it has the list of dependencies. Feb 07 20:04:56 yum remove packagename Feb 07 20:05:04 will remove a package Feb 07 20:05:22 yum info packagename Feb 07 20:05:25 nicklist off Feb 07 20:05:37 will show you some info about a package, similar to the rpm -qi we saw eariler. Feb 07 20:05:38 sorrry Feb 07 20:06:41 --> francisc1d_ (n=Ankur@122.172.7.162) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:06:44 yum update or yum upgrade get a list of updates pending and offers to download and upgrade them for you. Feb 07 20:06:51 note that in recent fedoras they are the same thing. Feb 07 20:07:01 (unless you have changed config file values) Feb 07 20:07:28 yum also has a bunch of group commands... Feb 07 20:07:45 <-- jsubl2 (n=jsubl2@adsl-75-53-44-81.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has left #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:07:45 yum grouplist - list all the groups available Feb 07 20:07:58 yum groupinstall "group name" - install all the packages in a group Feb 07 20:08:24 etc. See the yum man page 'man yum' for the entire list. ;) Feb 07 20:08:57 ok, so those are kinda the small subset of commands that most people will use/see... Feb 07 20:09:01 any questions on those? Feb 07 20:09:09 <-- mib_beksxo5f has quit (Client Quit) Feb 07 20:09:25 So far, so good. Feb 07 20:09:45 <-- franciscod has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 20:09:48 all cool Feb 07 20:09:57 ok, a few more informative commands that perhaps people don't know as well: Feb 07 20:10:00 yum repolist Feb 07 20:10:17 will show you all the repositories you have enabled currently. This can be handy in debugging problems. Feb 07 20:10:29 yum localinstall packagename.rpm Feb 07 20:10:56 will allow you to install a local package you have downloaded, plus any dependencies it has. Feb 07 20:11:47 you can also disable or enable repos for just one command. For this you use '--disablerepo=name' or '--enablerepo=name' Feb 07 20:12:02 Is "localinstall" implied when you give a package name ending in .rpm ? Feb 07 20:12:11 this is often handy for getting just one package from the updates-testing repo or the like Feb 07 20:12:48 brunowolff: I don't think so... you have to pass it a valid rpm package file... ie, 'yum localinstall /path/to/file.rpm' Feb 07 20:12:52 I am pretty sure I did yum install something.rpm and had it work. Feb 07 20:13:00 --> TheFord (n=rmorris@c-68-83-209-38.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:13:17 it's possible. ;) The yum guys are always adding cool new features... ;) Feb 07 20:13:55 brunowolff: we can check after the session? should be easy to test. ;) Feb 07 20:14:37 <-- skorcher has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 20:14:37 so, for installing just one package from updates-testing, you could do something like 'yum install packagename --enablerepo=fedora-updates-testing' Feb 07 20:14:39 <-- SM0TVI has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 20:14:40 --> rtnpro (n=rtnpro@125.20.11.34) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:15:15 another handy one which gets used on rawhide / development installs more than anywhere, is '--skip-broken' Feb 07 20:15:36 this allows yum to update only the things that don't have problems... Feb 07 20:16:13 --> che (n=rkastl@redhat/che) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:16:16 ok, thats the base yum commands... now I was going to take a bit about 'yum shell' Feb 07 20:17:00 yum also has the ability to run in a 'shell' mode. Feb 07 20:17:16 this is invoked via 'yum shell'. You can do some pretty advanced things here. Feb 07 20:17:47 you can for example remove one package and install another in a single transaction... instead of having to yum remove then yum install. Feb 07 20:18:18 I don't know how much we want to get into it's details, but it's a powerfull tool worth mentioning. Feb 07 20:18:47 ok, next I wanted to move on to yum plugins. Feb 07 20:19:15 There are a number of plugins available for yum that add on to it, or change it's behavior. Feb 07 20:19:30 You can take a look at this list with: yum list 'yum-*' Feb 07 20:20:02 A few to mention: Feb 07 20:20:33 the yum-fastestmirror plugin is pretty popular. It allows a simplistic check on the mirrors you have available to you and tries to send you to the 'fastest' one. Feb 07 20:21:00 sadly it can sometimes point you to an out of date mirror also, so be careful when using it. Feb 07 20:21:40 the yum-presto plugin will likely become more popular in later releases. It allows you to download a delta of a update instead of the entire package again... Feb 07 20:21:45 saving much bandwith. Feb 07 20:22:02 There aren't any official fedora mirrors setup for this yet, but it's being worked on. Feb 07 20:22:44 Another plugin of interest is the yum-security plugin. This will allow you to only apply security updates, and not all updates (bugfix and enhancement) that come out. Feb 07 20:23:01 <-- VileGent has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 07 20:23:08 Anyone have any questions on plugins? Feb 07 20:23:27 the new yum-post-transaction-actions is quite usefull :) Feb 07 20:23:59 indeed. There are lots of interesting ones. Feb 07 20:24:16 --> EvilBob (n=EvilBob@fedora/bobjensen) has joined #Fedora-Classroom Feb 07 20:24:22 ok, moving on, I'd like to talk about yum-utils for a bit. Feb 07 20:24:50 yum-utils are some associated utilities. It is a seperate package from yum, but it's installed by default now on recent fedora releases. Feb 07 20:25:28 you can run a 'rpm -ql yum-utils' to see all the bundled utils in the package. Feb 07 20:25:29 <-- Guest123 has quit (Excess Flood) Feb 07 20:25:49 I'll point out 3 or so of them: Feb 07 20:25:55 --> Guest123 (i=KVIrc@c80-216-141-34.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #Fedora-Classroom Feb 07 20:26:08 yumdownloader - this handy util lets you download packages. It does not install them, just downloads them... Feb 07 20:26:32 it has some nifty arguments as well: --url will just show the url of the package (handy for pasting to someone else on irc) Feb 07 20:26:52 --source will get the source package instead of the normal binary package. Feb 07 20:27:06 so you can get source to some package you are interested in (in src.rpm form) Feb 07 20:27:45 you can pass it --enablerepo and --disablerepo as well. Feb 07 20:28:02 so you can get the url to a source rpm for a repo you don't even normally have enabled. ;) Feb 07 20:28:36 Any questions on yumdownloader? Feb 07 20:28:41 <-- suyashkmr has quit ("leaving") Feb 07 20:29:06 --> skorcher (n=SK@122.172.7.162) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:29:12 next up is 'debuginfo-install'. Feb 07 20:29:36 this allows you to install debuginfo packages. You need these if you are debugging a program thats crashing... Feb 07 20:30:04 this util will fetch not only the debuginfo for the package you name, but all the ones it depends on as well. Feb 07 20:30:49 Finally in yum-utils, I'd like to talk about 'yum-complete-transaction' Feb 07 20:31:18 Has anyone here ever had a machine loose power in the middle of an update? Feb 07 20:31:29 yes Feb 07 20:31:48 This can be pretty messy as you have a bunch of packages half installed and it's in a weird state. Feb 07 20:31:57 More likely had X go away when not using 'screen' to run the yum command. Feb 07 20:32:14 This command will allow you to tell yum to finish it's last uncompleted transaction. Feb 07 20:32:38 So, in some cases you can just run this and everything is all back to normal. Feb 07 20:32:43 It actually will do the oldest uncompleted transaction if you have more than one. Feb 07 20:32:48 * nirik nods. Feb 07 20:33:04 correct. You can also tell it to forget about some pending ones you dont want it to complete anymore. Feb 07 20:33:30 so, it's a pretty handy command. Feb 07 20:33:51 If you don't have any pending transactions, it will tell you so. Feb 07 20:34:34 ok, I would like to take a bit about searching for things now... unless anyone has any questions on anything so far? Feb 07 20:35:03 Are you going to cover package-cleanup? That's nice for people doing yum upgrades. Feb 07 20:35:22 brunowolff: yeah, we can go over that one real quick... Feb 07 20:35:27 --> rtnpro_ (n=rtnpro@117.201.96.69) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:35:42 package-cleanup is another util that allows you to look for and clean up some problems with your installed package collection. Feb 07 20:36:18 the --problems flag will tell you about problems you have, like missing dependencies or the like. Feb 07 20:36:42 -d will tell you about duplicate packages you have installed. Feb 07 20:36:52 ie, from an update or transaction that never finished right. Feb 07 20:37:16 --cleandupes will also clean out the older versions of any duplicate packages. Feb 07 20:37:44 --orphans will tell you about any packages you have installed that are NOT available in any repo you have enabled. Feb 07 20:37:51 you can also get this info from 'yum list extras' Feb 07 20:38:45 this can tell you what locally built or 3rd party packages were installed on a machine. Feb 07 20:38:52 nirik, ! Feb 07 20:38:58 go ahead rtnpro_ Feb 07 20:39:50 nirik, lately my kernel was not getting updated, but when I did yum clean all, it did Feb 07 20:40:14 rtnpro_: great question. It was telling you that you had no updates pending? Feb 07 20:40:38 yum keeps a cache locally to speed up some actions. Feb 07 20:41:17 so, it will check the mirrors for updates only once that cache has timed out. Usually this isn't a problem, but sometimes you want it to check more often. Feb 07 20:41:51 you can use 'yum clean all', but that will also clean out any downloaded packages you have around, and any copies of any of the metadata. Feb 07 20:42:08 you can use just 'yum clean metadata' if you want it to check again for everything, right then. Feb 07 20:42:12 nirik, can you explain why ? Feb 07 20:42:12 nirik, rather it gave me some dependency incompatibilities Feb 07 20:42:38 rtnpro_: ah, do you by any chance have any kmod packages installed from rpmfusion? Feb 07 20:43:26 in that case, when fedora releases a new kernel, rpmfusion builds a new kmod package, but you have to wait for them both to sync out. If you only have one available on your mirrors, Feb 07 20:43:34 you run into a dependency problem with kernel upgrades. Feb 07 20:43:43 does that make sense? Feb 07 20:43:49 nirik, yes kmod-nvidia Feb 07 20:44:16 rtnpro_: I can get you a post that explains it in more detail after the class if you like... Feb 07 20:44:35 ok, shall we move on to searching? then perhaps go to some q&a? Feb 07 20:45:18 so you can use yum to search for things. You have seen 'yum list' to list package names, but yum also has other search features. Feb 07 20:45:19 Can you talk about setting options in the config file, such as making skip broken the default? Feb 07 20:45:36 brunowolff: sure thing. Lets talk about searching for a bit then cover that... Feb 07 20:45:39 Oops I got ahead. Feb 07 20:45:49 <-- rtnpro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 20:46:17 yum has a 'search' feature... which searchs the package name, the description and summary... Feb 07 20:46:55 ie, 'yum search fingerprint' for example to show any package with that in those fields. Feb 07 20:47:46 Sometimes you will want to find out what package owns a particular file that you want... you can use 'yum provides' for that... with wildcards. Feb 07 20:48:28 ie, 'yum provides '/*bash'' Note that you want to use /* there if you don't know the path so that yum knows you are talking about a file path and not a name Feb 07 20:48:49 Wouldn't */bash be better? Feb 07 20:49:19 --> rtnpro (n=rtnpro@117.201.96.69) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 20:49:56 <-- rtnpro_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Feb 07 20:49:56 brunowolff: yeah, that will work now I guess. it used to be that / needed to be first so yum knew it was a path... Feb 07 20:50:30 That has definitely changed, since I use leading */ on my searches. Feb 07 20:50:35 ok, any questions on searching? Feb 07 20:50:36 <-- Guest123 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 20:50:59 brunowolff: yeah, it's changed, but I am not sure in which release... Feb 07 20:51:16 what if the file you are searching for ins't installed? Feb 07 20:51:31 Why does yum use provides to mean what you uses whatprovides for. I found that confusing. Feb 07 20:51:45 inode0: it doesn't matter. It searches yum's info from the mirrors. Feb 07 20:52:00 And related to that is there a way to get what a package provides from yum? Feb 07 20:52:08 inode0: so the good thing is that it doesn't have to be installed. ;) Feb 07 20:52:34 brunowolff: yeah, you mean rpm there ? I don't know why they are different. Feb 07 20:52:41 There should have been an 'rpm' in there somewhere. Feb 07 20:53:40 I don't think you can get that from yum... but there is another command: repoquery This will let you do all kinds of queries on packages. Feb 07 20:54:09 repoquery -q --provides foobar Feb 07 20:54:27 ok, we are running low on time... lets talk about the config file. Feb 07 20:54:35 yum uses a config file in /etc/yum.conf Feb 07 20:54:48 you can look at all the options via 'man yum.conf' Feb 07 20:54:56 That should do. It's a pain to use rpm for stuff that isn't installed, even with a local mirror. Feb 07 20:55:20 you can use for example 'skip_broken=1' to set it to be on by default in /etc/yum.conf. Feb 07 20:55:33 brunowolff: yeah. repoquery works, but it can be slow... ;) Feb 07 20:56:01 It's worth noting that any plugin config is done in /etc/yum/pluginconf.d/ Feb 07 20:56:24 not in the main yum.conf. Feb 07 20:56:46 brunowolff: did that answer your question on skip_broken/ Feb 07 20:57:25 Yes. I think for plugins as well. I wasn't sure if they went in the main file or somewhere else. Feb 07 20:57:27 any further questions before we wrap up? Feb 07 20:58:57 I did test not having to use localinstall and at least for names ending in .rpm 'install' will work. Feb 07 20:59:21 excellent. Thanks for the info brunowolff Feb 07 21:00:00 its worth noting that for rpm it doesn't care what the file is called... it could be foobar.doc and if it's a valid rpm file it will still operate on it fine. Feb 07 21:00:21 ok, thanks everyone! Feb 07 21:01:00 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - 15min break. Next class at 04:15UTC - see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for schedule of tonights classes. Feb 07 21:01:10 <-- skorcher has quit ("Lost terminal") Feb 07 21:04:04 nirik, ! Feb 07 21:04:22 rtnpro: question? ask away... :) Feb 07 21:07:00 nirik, about the post you mentioned you'd giving me after the class Feb 07 21:07:21 rtnpro: ah yes, let me get that for you... just a sec. Feb 07 21:07:48 --> rtnpro_ (n=rtnpro@125.20.11.34) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:08:12 nirik, sorry, I was disconnected Feb 07 21:08:27 rtnpro_: no problem, let me get that info for you... need to find it. ;) Feb 07 21:08:40 nirik, as you were saying about some post you'd give me to read Feb 07 21:08:53 nirik, ok Feb 07 21:10:21 rtnpro: sorry - what was the question? (i missed it) Feb 07 21:11:51 rtnpro: out of date mirrors can create dependency holes, which can prevent a package from being properly updated. "yum clean all" removes the local repo information and fetches it fresh from (potentially different) mirrors. Feb 07 21:13:08 * nirik is trying to find the post he read, but is having trouble doing so... ;( Feb 07 21:15:14 rtnpro_: still looking... will let you know when I get it. ;) Feb 07 21:15:15 ready for me? Feb 07 21:15:17 jds2001: you ready? Feb 07 21:15:29 nirik, ok Feb 07 21:15:37 give me 30 seconds... Feb 07 21:15:42 --> KishanGoyal (n=Kishan@125.20.11.34) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:15:58 nirik, one I get asked a bit ... "how can you tell what repo a package came from - after it's installed" Feb 07 21:16:16 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom Fedora 11 Features with your teacher Jon Stanley ( jds2001 ) - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for tonights class schedule. Feb 07 21:16:43 --> XanThaOs (n=sacredde@71-90-228-054.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:16:53 --> jzhou (n=jzhou@pcp061561pcs.unl.edu) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:16:54 --> Dr_willis (n=willis@c-67-163-55-207.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:16:55 alright, sorry about that delay Feb 07 21:16:57 I think yum info will tell you that as long as the packname is unique across repos. Feb 07 21:17:06 --> tw2113 (n=tw2113@fedora/tw2113) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:17:14 fenris02: thats a tough one. gpg key that it's signed by? ;) Feb 07 21:17:24 anyhow, jds2001: take it away! Feb 07 21:17:33 --> joropo (n=joropo@64.89.242.56) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:17:47 so this came from a requested class, but I'm not sure what folks wanted. Feb 07 21:18:04 rtnpro_: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html Feb 07 21:18:05 --> mwilson (i=foobar@ip68-101-143-117.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:18:17 nirik, thank you Feb 07 21:18:40 I'm Jon Stanley, current chair of the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee. We handle the "Feature Process", which is the process by which new features get accepted into Fedora. Feb 07 21:18:41 nirik, crumb. that was my answer too. Thanks :) Feb 07 21:19:18 --> openpercept (n=openperc@unaffiliated/openpercept) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:19:26 --> Guest456 (i=KVIrc@c80-216-141-34.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #Fedora-Classroom Feb 07 21:19:30 The current list of features is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/FeatureList Feb 07 21:19:53 there are a few that I'd like to hit on that are going to be major ones for F11. Feb 07 21:20:22 first, on new installs, our default filesystem is likely to be ext4 Feb 07 21:20:53 we're currently on the lookout for data corruption/stability bugs and are going to revisit this in about a month. Feb 07 21:21:11 however I think it's somewhat safe to say it's in. Feb 07 21:21:28 It is no longer experimental upstream, either. Feb 07 21:22:02 Another one is presto Feb 07 21:22:12 Sorry, do we question as you go or wait until the end? Feb 07 21:22:28 jump right in, i have no clue what folks want :) Feb 07 21:22:35 very interacrive is my style :) Feb 07 21:23:09 How did ext4 get the nod? Is it ready? Feb 07 21:23:36 we believe so. This testing period is critical for determining that. Feb 07 21:23:40 aTypical, there was a session in fedora-qa recently Feb 07 21:24:16 yeah, there was an actual test day on it, I guess i'll bring those up too. Feb 07 21:24:48 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days/F11 is the schedule for "test days" Feb 07 21:24:52 How are kernel updates going to work for 586/686? Feb 07 21:25:15 EXT4 has a working fsck? Feb 07 21:25:17 Is something going to switch us automatically? Feb 07 21:25:24 these are days of very focused QA Feb 07 21:25:30 brunowolff: nope, fresh installs only Feb 07 21:25:44 mwilson: yes, e4fsprogs exists. Feb 07 21:25:45 mwilson: yes Feb 07 21:25:49 <-- openpercept (n=openperc@unaffiliated/openpercept) has left #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:25:56 The latest rawhide kernel doesn't even have a 686 arch version. Feb 07 21:26:08 brunowolff: really? Feb 07 21:26:11 --> cuga (i=cuga@CPE00080232ec3b-CM0012c92137d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:26:15 must be some build failure. Feb 07 21:26:30 <-- yunustj_afk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 21:26:32 no, thats right... you want the PAE one. Feb 07 21:26:38 so while we're on that topic, we're also changing what architectures we support and default compiler flags. Feb 07 21:26:40 or the i586 one. Feb 07 21:26:48 This isn't like reiser always supposedly had a working fsck, except all it did was eat the data, I hope. No one else I've heard has committed to distributing on EXT4. Feb 07 21:26:50 oh, OK. Feb 07 21:27:26 I don't think my home machine supports PAE, so I probably want the 586 one? Feb 07 21:27:52 brunowolff: what is it? look up it's specs. Likely it does support PAE. :) Feb 07 21:28:02 if it's recent, I'm sure it does. Feb 07 21:28:07 what processor have you got? Feb 07 21:28:14 Its a 2 cpu athlon tbird. Feb 07 21:28:26 jds2001: what are they changing to? Feb 07 21:28:47 Falstius: the specific compiler flags, im not sure Feb 07 21:28:58 I'll be able to test it after I get home, as I have the rawhide updates with me. Feb 07 21:29:02 but we're switching the target arch from i386 to i586 Feb 07 21:29:16 ok Feb 07 21:29:22 so we pick up some new instructions that leads to more effeciencies. Feb 07 21:29:54 <-- jzhou has quit ("Leaving") Feb 07 21:29:55 along those same lines, we'll be installing an x86_64 kernel on 32-bit installs if the processor supports it. Feb 07 21:30:14 what about support for atom? (I know gcc isn't really optimized yet) Feb 07 21:30:21 What about user-space? Feb 07 21:30:40 mwilson: userspace would still be 32-bit Feb 07 21:30:45 Does /proc/cpuinfo show that info? Maybe in address size? Feb 07 21:30:58 but you win from the kernel being x86_64 even. Feb 07 21:31:14 interesting Feb 07 21:31:45 the biggest win there is the elimination of the highmem/lowmem split. Feb 07 21:31:49 Is that going to be a Fedora-ism, or is running a 64-bit kernel and a 32-bit userspace a normal thing? Feb 07 21:32:32 jds2001, ! Feb 07 21:32:40 I'm not actually sure, I've not looked at what other distros are doing. Feb 07 21:32:51 rtnpro_: go ahead, no need for that with me :) Feb 07 21:33:50 jds2001, after years of sticking to i386 set, why switch now? Feb 07 21:33:50 mwilson: but even if it's a Fedora-ism, it still makes sense. Feb 07 21:33:59 jds2001, Does that mean that with the x86_64 kernel, the kernel processes will be faster and again retain the compatibility with 32-bit applications? Feb 07 21:34:22 rtnpro_: not really faster, but compatibility is retained. Feb 07 21:34:32 I meant in the sense of is Fedora implementing some sort of thunking layer? I always thought the kernel and user space had to match, other than compatability bits. Feb 07 21:34:32 rtnpro, ok Feb 07 21:35:00 fenris02: newer gcc, some more gains. Also, less really really old hardware around. Feb 07 21:35:10 mwilson: not necessarily - we're not implementing anything new here other than installing an x86_64 kernel. Feb 07 21:35:14 mwilson, 64-bit kernel, 32-bit userspace means that every app will be thunk'd (sp?) Feb 07 21:35:47 Fedora has never been about supporting old hardware. People using old hardware should be discouraged from running Fedora, their experience will not be optimal. Feb 07 21:35:50 apps can exist at different spaces within the memory the kernel can address. Feb 07 21:36:36 so even though a 32 bit app can only see 4GB, that could be from 3-7GB physical addressing. Feb 07 21:36:47 oversimplifying, of course :D Feb 07 21:36:52 Can you talk about DeviceKit, and how Fedora plans to avoid another fiasco like PulseAudio? Feb 07 21:37:05 <-- rtnpro has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) Feb 07 21:37:28 sure, DeviceKit is a replacement for a moribund hal. Feb 07 21:37:32 mwilson, esd was along the same lines, but worse. PA is an improvement. Feb 07 21:37:32 OTOT, the bleeding edge is what it is. Feb 07 21:37:57 it's not going to replace hal immediately Feb 07 21:38:08 Except PA was nowhere near ready, but it was made the default anyway. Feb 07 21:39:01 * jds2001 isn't really a desktop guy himself, so I'm a little out of my domain of expertise with DeviceKit. Feb 07 21:39:06 <-- XanThaOs has quit (".::The Reborn Of Evil Spirits::. €ZoMBiE€ Sc®ïþt 2.2 .ßý. xom[b] .::[http://otai.cjb.net/]::.") Feb 07 21:39:26 Something like HAL is a little more essential to the proper working of the machine, these days. Feb 07 21:39:36 but I believe it's aim is to *eventually* replace hal. Rome wasn't built in a day, however. Feb 07 21:40:12 jds2001, any plans to revamp /etc/init.d/* items to use upstart scripts directly? Feb 07 21:40:41 right now, aiui, it's handling disk devices only Feb 07 21:41:00 fenris02: i think that's blocking on essentially a rewrite of upstart. Feb 07 21:41:06 <-- tw2113 (n=tw2113@fedora/tw2113) has left #fedora-classroom ("There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.") Feb 07 21:41:07 nirik: am i remembering wrong here? Feb 07 21:41:30 Ubuntu isn't still trying to emulate SysV, are they? Feb 07 21:41:31 yeah, I don't think devicekit is going to replace hal yet... perhaps next cycle if it's ready. Feb 07 21:41:40 mwilson: they do as far as I know. Feb 07 21:42:01 there is work on a upstart re-write going on. No idea where it is tho. Feb 07 21:42:41 This 20 second startup thing sounds like there's upstart work being done in Fedora. Feb 07 21:42:54 will readahead be tuned such that it pulls more than 4k by default? :) Feb 07 21:43:06 actually I thought that too. There's no real upstart work involved there. Feb 07 21:43:53 fenris02: no idea :) Feb 07 21:44:02 see http://screwyouenterpriseedition.blogspot.com/ for info on the upstart re-write. I don't think there will be any move to switch sysvinit scripts until thats done and ready. Feb 07 21:45:57 one other feature i wanted to touch on is presto. Feb 07 21:46:23 as nirik mentioned in his yum talk, there's been a yum plugin to support deltarpm's for a good time now. Feb 07 21:46:41 but we lacked bodhi/mash/createrepo support for it. Feb 07 21:47:11 presto's been talked about since F7. Feb 07 21:47:14 seth made it so it's a simple flag to createrepo now, so almost no bodhi changes are needed. Feb 07 21:47:49 mwilson: yep, and it's well on it's way to being an official reality I think :) Feb 07 21:50:30 oh, and one more thing worthy or note Feb 07 21:50:42 the text UI in anaconda is being reworked. Feb 07 21:50:57 NO. it's not going away as you may have heard. Feb 07 21:51:29 but it will have less functionality, and become the truly minimal install experience that folks have asked for. Feb 07 21:52:02 suitable for server installs? (ie: no xorg, no bluez, ...) Feb 07 21:52:03 we even more strongly urge folks to use VNC or xdriver=vesa now. Feb 07 21:52:18 Fedora isn't suitable for servers no matter what the installer looks like. Feb 07 21:52:33 mwilson, not the point. (thinking more about el6 actually) Feb 07 21:52:37 fenris02: not sure, but aiui, you'll be able to get new packages, and that's about it. Feb 07 21:53:12 i've actuallly not done a text install since the anaconda changes landed. Feb 07 21:54:10 It sounded for a while like Fedora was going to take away text, period. Who was that, Nottingham? I guess that argument was lost. Feb 07 21:54:22 <-- franciscod_ has quit ("leaving") Feb 07 21:54:22 <-- francisc1d_ has quit ("leaving") Feb 07 21:54:28 "blockdev --getra /dev/mapper/*" - default is 256. changing this to something larger (like 4096) increases perf from say 140MB/s to 320. ymmv of course. (Hence the earlier question, but I had to find the details) Feb 07 21:54:43 --> franciscod (n=Ankur@122.172.7.162) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 21:55:03 Is that number real? How do you get 320 out of real disk hardware? Feb 07 21:55:11 mwilson, it's real. Feb 07 21:55:25 mwilson, software-raid5 Feb 07 21:55:59 fenris02: I saw those bugs... I don't see it here on my rawhide machine, but don't know if it was fixed or something about the way I installed changed it. Feb 07 21:56:39 Is LVM going to still be the default, or will Fedora *finally* move away from that? Feb 07 21:56:52 mwilson, is there something better around? Feb 07 21:57:15 There's no *reason*, most of the time. Feb 07 21:57:22 really? Feb 07 21:57:24 mwilson, resize and snapshots Feb 07 21:57:26 i like LVM Feb 07 21:57:37 Let's make a LVM, just so we can make one slice inside it. Feb 07 21:57:38 LVM will always be the default, im sure. Feb 07 21:57:38 there was talk of it, but it has not gotten to fesco yet. ;) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoDefaultLVM Feb 07 21:57:53 <-- che has quit ("Verlassend") Feb 07 21:57:59 Complexity for the sake of complexity is never good. Feb 07 21:58:05 * jds2001 is somewhat opposed to that. Feb 07 21:58:07 it may go away when btrfs comes in too tho, as it has a lot of lvm functionality already built in. Feb 07 21:58:25 Most people don't resize and snapshots are like backups, no one does. Feb 07 21:58:25 you can do stuff with root on LVM that you can't do otherwise. Feb 07 21:58:53 But are they things that need doing? Feb 07 21:58:58 elevator/deadline/none iosched tuning would be fitting too. that should be determined by hardware type. (none for flash media for ex) Feb 07 21:59:50 * nirik notes that crypt is done via dm-crypt, so it kinda needs lvm Feb 07 22:00:05 mwilson, snapshots for backups are absolutely *awesome*. You have a point though. However, I'd disagree with making defaults change just because users are lazy Feb 07 22:00:28 nirik, just dm-crypt can be done w/o lvm, no? Feb 07 22:00:46 not sure, it may be able to... Feb 07 22:01:07 yeah, you can encrypt physical devices Feb 07 22:01:13 fenris02: No, there's something someone should propose. Take all these pseudo-TimeMachine-like things and actually roll them into a distribution. Make backups easy enough that it's harder NOT to do it, than to do it. Feb 07 22:01:23 i thing lvm sesize is extremely usefull Feb 07 22:01:36 that's the default if you select encryption actually - it encrypts your partition that the rootvg is on. Feb 07 22:01:50 Resize is a non-starter for most everyone. Feb 07 22:01:50 mwilson, good point. have any suggestions how? Feb 07 22:02:01 I run dm-crypt over md raid and no lvm on my systems. Feb 07 22:02:05 oh, and one more change that there is. Feb 07 22:02:09 resize is "hard" because decent gui tools are non-existant Feb 07 22:02:31 the anaconda-created volume group is now named for the hostname of the machine. Feb 07 22:02:43 rather than VolGroup00 Feb 07 22:02:53 VG-host/LV-slice ? Feb 07 22:02:54 jds2001: excellent. Feb 07 22:03:05 Yes, but making it easier to break the box isn't on, either. Wrap this shiny GUI around it, everyone thinks they can do it, until they hose it, and don't have a backup of it. Feb 07 22:03:08 which is great, since moving drives from machine to machine is easier. Feb 07 22:03:11 Some things should still be hard. Feb 07 22:03:33 having two drives with VolGroup00 is "entertaining" Feb 07 22:03:48 just like two with 'LABEL=/' :) Feb 07 22:03:57 very much like that Feb 07 22:04:03 One of these days I'm going to look at the LVM toolchain enough to learn how to change that VoLGroup00 name to what I want it to be. Feb 07 22:04:07 <-- franciscod has quit ("leaving") Feb 07 22:05:41 mwilson: vgrename Feb 07 22:06:02 fenris02: In answer to your question, no, I don't know how. I do it with rsync and a script. But someone can wrap a GUI around the concept and make it easy enough to use. Ubuntu tried, but it went nowhere. Feb 07 22:06:41 mwilson, mdns + rdiff-backup should work, but needs a wrapper Feb 07 22:06:57 Why does mdns need to be a part of it? Feb 07 22:07:09 mwilson, make it work automagically Feb 07 22:07:11 Complexity for complexity's sake again. Feb 07 22:07:33 mwilson, how else would you propose a system perform automated backups w/o user intervention? Feb 07 22:08:13 You presume that most people would be doing it over a network, vice to another local device. Feb 07 22:08:21 I presume the reverse. Feb 07 22:11:12 *nod* comparing with timemachine. Feb 07 22:11:13 anyhow, anything else? Feb 07 22:11:21 I think I'm almost out of time here. Feb 07 22:12:14 <-- TheFord has quit ("Leaving") Feb 07 22:12:20 New python, but that's just, well, new python. Feb 07 22:12:44 crashcatcher might be nice... we will see how it turns out. Feb 07 22:12:53 yeah, and no idea when py3k will land - that will be the interesting one. Feb 07 22:13:07 * jds2001 suspects not before F13 Feb 07 22:13:23 Fedora can put as many bandaids on the bug process as they like, the main problem is bugzilla itself. Feb 07 22:14:14 * nirik thought the main problem was not enough people to fix all bugs. Feb 07 22:14:19 well that's a little out of scope here, and we're out of time, but what else do you propose? Feb 07 22:14:56 nirik, barely sufficient to sort out dups anyway. let alone EOL and NEEDSINFO Feb 07 22:15:24 i think that's the case with anything, really. Feb 07 22:15:31 yeah. Feb 07 22:15:43 <-- aTypical has quit ("Leaving") Feb 07 22:15:44 thanks for coming jds2001 ! Feb 07 22:15:58 if bugcatcher can properly file them under the correct app - that alone is a perk. Feb 07 22:16:11 np, look forward to coming back again! Feb 07 22:16:13 Bugzilla is opaque, always has been, hard to interface with. I always look at Debian's BTS as how you *should* do bugs. Make the bar as low as possible. The idea that you have to have a *login* to file a bug... Feb 07 22:16:13 s/bugcatcher/crashcatcher/ Feb 07 22:16:26 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - 15min break. Next class at 05:30UTC - see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for schedule of tonights classes. Feb 07 22:16:28 Anyway, old argument. Feb 07 22:16:47 Thanks for the informative meet. Feb 07 22:16:56 thanks jds2001 Feb 07 22:17:03 thanks jds2001 Feb 07 22:17:06 yeah, and provide enough info to figure out whats going on... many bug reports lack info and reporters don't respond to fill them in. Feb 07 22:19:30 release lifecycle is not conducive to end user satisfaction with whatever bug processing gets done - they will always move on without getting bugs resolved Feb 07 22:22:20 Having more bugs filed is always preferable to no bugs getting filed. You can always close them. Feb 07 22:22:33 <-- KishanGoyal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Feb 07 22:22:46 <-- mwilson (i=foobar@ip68-101-143-117.sd.sd.cox.net) has left #fedora-classroom ("Leaving") Feb 07 22:29:42 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Fedora i18n with your teacher Jens Petersen ( juhp ) - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for tonights class schedule. Feb 07 22:29:48 juhp: you ready? Feb 07 22:30:19 I am here now Feb 07 22:30:27 excellent. Take it away. ;) Feb 07 22:30:32 okays Feb 07 22:30:40 hi everyone Feb 07 22:30:53 this is the Fedora i18n class Feb 07 22:31:03 I am called Jens Petersen Feb 07 22:31:20 --> tapan_ (n=tapan@59.178.154.129) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 22:31:33 * juhp has been having a busy day so hasn't been following the other classes alas Feb 07 22:32:02 who's sitting in on this one? :) Feb 07 22:32:40 I want to make this pretty informal so feel free to interrupt any time and ask questions Feb 07 22:32:48 there's a good number of folks present, i'm guessing they're ready Feb 07 22:33:04 and I'll try to answer and take any extended discussion to the end Feb 07 22:33:12 yep cool Feb 07 22:33:30 <-- tapan_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 07 22:33:41 so this talk is about software Internationalization and particularly in the context of Fedora Feb 07 22:34:01 * juhp wishes at times like this he was a faster typist :) Feb 07 22:34:38 so today I am thinking to cover/touch on Feb 07 22:34:48 (after an intro) Feb 07 22:34:58 a bit on languages and locale Feb 07 22:35:13 little on fonts and fedora fonts Feb 07 22:35:28 about "input" (as in input of text) Feb 07 22:35:37 --> codergeek42 (n=pgordon@fedora/codergeek42) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 22:35:51 localization of software Feb 07 22:36:17 and depending on time etc round off with how one can contribute and get involved with fedora-i18n Feb 07 22:36:49 <-- rtnpro_ has quit ("Leaving") Feb 07 22:36:55 anyway it is a pretty flexible class so I am happy to take it in various directions depending on what people want :) Feb 07 22:36:59 so Feb 07 22:37:04 What is i18n? Feb 07 22:37:29 how do people usually say i18n? Feb 07 22:37:35 i18n of software means making it work well for everyone Feb 07 22:37:39 on the planet Feb 07 22:37:46 Falstius: good question Feb 07 22:38:51 usually it is pronounced (using English wording) "eye- ay - teen" Feb 07 22:39:10 I am not good at phonetic alphabet Feb 07 22:39:17 something like that anyway Feb 07 22:39:54 ok Feb 07 22:39:58 standing for Internationalization and the 18 characters between the leading "I" and the final "n" :) Feb 07 22:40:11 thanks :) Feb 07 22:40:24 --> thomasj (n=thomasj@fedora/thomasj) has joined #fedora-classroom Feb 07 22:40:38 * fenris02 smirks Feb 07 22:41:00 there are a few sister abbreviations: l10n (localization), m17n (multilingualization) and g10n (globalization) Feb 07 22:41:08 learn something new everyday :) Feb 07 22:41:10 <-- Dr_willis (n=willis@c-67-163-55-207.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has left #fedora-classroom ("Leaving") Feb 07 22:41:30 always thought it stood for something more... 'technical' haha Feb 07 22:41:48 And here I thought it was some sort of sound alike shorthand. Feb 07 22:42:13 so i18n of software means that the software supports display of text (eg UI/GUI) in native languages and allows input of native text and printing of output, etc Feb 07 22:42:25 :) Feb 07 22:43:04 so that's briefly on the concept of software i18n Feb 07 22:44:05 so from the of view of programming it covers both input systems, rendering of text, and also localization technology (allowing application to be translated or "localized") Feb 07 22:44:33 So now the question is Feb 07 22:44:58 what does i18n mean or cover in the context of Fedora Feb 07 22:46:05 as you see it is in fact rather wide covering area so in some sense of form it affects and relates to many, many components and packages in Fedora and also its infrastructure even Feb 07 22:46:20 of -> or Feb 07 22:47:33 Fedora i18n project in the Fedora Project is concerned with the i18n of fedora - particularly the desktop(s) but of course also a lot of other aspects of the OS, etc Feb 07 22:48:39 <-- codergeek42 has quit ("Leaving") Feb 07 22:49:25 of course these days thankfully the open source and free software community and efforts are becoming more and more international and it almost goes without saying that any large project with user facing coding will be internationalized (i18n'ed) upstream Feb 07 22:50:14 --> SM0TVI (i=KVIrc@c80-216-141-34.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #Fedora-Classroom Feb 07 22:50:24 so all big projects, like GNOME, Mozilla, KDE, Openoffice.org (just to name some obvious ones) all have their upstream i18n work and l10n teams Feb 07 22:51:32 so that everyone can benefit from it - it just does not make sense or scale to do that at a distro like - though that might have happened in the early does of Linux (with local/regional distro forks/derivations) Feb 07 22:52:00 you can find out more about the fedora-i18n project on the wiki: Feb 07 22:52:16 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N Feb 07 22:53:04 we also have an irc channel #fedora-i18n, which is easy to talk in away from the hustle and bustle of #fedora-devel or ##fedora Feb 07 22:53:24 ok any questions at this point? Feb 07 22:53:52 if the big projects are done upstream, the fedora group does smaller projects that don't have their own teams? Feb 07 22:53:54 otherwise let's start looking at "languages" Feb 07 22:54:33 Falstius: well fedora-i18n also does a lot of packaging and maintenance work Feb 07 22:55:06 and working with upstream and package maintainers about fixing issues related to i18n Feb 07 22:55:48 <-- thomasj_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 22:55:49 but we also do development yes and contribute to some upstream projects related directly to i18n Feb 07 22:55:57 we'll probably come to more of that later Feb 07 22:56:00 ok Feb 07 22:56:52 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/i18n-team Feb 07 22:57:04 is a list of some of the packages we maintain Feb 07 22:57:10 in fedora Feb 07 22:57:25 and some of us work on RHEL too of course Feb 07 22:57:47 * Languages and Locale Feb 07 22:58:24 in unix and linux systems, the language settings are controlled by what is called locale Feb 07 22:59:04 you can try running the "locale" command in a shell to see what locale your system (or at least your shell) is running in Feb 07 22:59:32 % locale Feb 07 22:59:32 LANG=ja_JP.utf8 Feb 07 22:59:32 LC_CTYPE="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:32 LC_NUMERIC="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:32 LC_TIME="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:33 LC_COLLATE="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:35 LC_MONETARY="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:37 LC_MESSAGES="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:39 LC_PAPER="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:41 LC_NAME="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:45 LC_ADDRESS="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:47 LC_TELEPHONE="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:49 LC_MEASUREMENT="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:51 LC_IDENTIFICATION="ja_JP.utf8" Feb 07 22:59:53 LC_ALL= Feb 07 22:59:55 excuse me Feb 07 22:59:57 that is what mine says Feb 07 22:59:59 which may be different from yours :) Feb 07 23:00:38 I won't explain all those envvar (environment variables) now Feb 07 23:00:45 but briefly: Feb 07 23:01:17 (rtfm:) Feb 07 23:01:52 LANG is the general variable which can be overridden by the others for specific contexts Feb 07 23:02:08 ja = Japanese (I used to live in Japan for quite a while) Feb 07 23:02:15 JP = Japan Feb 07 23:02:30 and oh utf8 should be UTF-8 ;-) Feb 07 23:02:35 hmmm Feb 07 23:02:43 that that "bug" was fixed! Feb 07 23:03:09 hmm my rawhide box is ok, ah well Feb 07 23:03:38 so when you install fedora or login with gdm Feb 07 23:04:06 and you choose the language you are really specifying the default locale for the system or desktop session Feb 07 23:04:40 you can change the system locale with system-config-language (needs root privilege of course) Feb 07 23:04:56 ok time is flying so I will move one Feb 07 23:04:57 on Feb 07 23:05:15 another focus interest is fonts Feb 07 23:05:19 * Fonts Feb 07 23:05:43 if you look through the above package list you will find a lot of fonts for Asian languages, etc Feb 07 23:06:47 they allow Arabic, Japanese, Indian scripts, Chinese, Thai, ... Tibetan and lots of other languages to display on the screen Feb 07 23:07:40 these days dejavu-fonts covers quite a lot of scripts, but not most of the above (with the exception of Arabic) Feb 07 23:07:53 oh I should have mentioned Unicode.... Feb 07 23:08:10 and don't really have time to go into encodings and charsets Feb 07 23:08:56 so for fonts coverage I like to go to the front page of wikipedia that lists lots of languages to see how Fedora is doing on i18n fonts coverage Feb 07 23:09:42 you can try it now in your browser and see how it is for you: Feb 07 23:09:51 go to http://wikipedia.org/ Feb 07 23:10:11 and in fact fedora is not doing bad :) Feb 07 23:10:49 we have coverage for all languages listed there with 1000+ articles Feb 07 23:10:54 :) Feb 07 23:11:32 and thanks to the great work of the Fonts Fonts SIG fonts support is getting much better in the recent releases with more fonts and more coverage :) Feb 07 23:11:44 <-- Guest456 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 07 23:11:55 which is really important for getting more users in those countries Feb 07 23:12:13 I am seeing codes instead of characters for one of the 1000+ languages. Feb 07 23:12:18 so that is a simple m17n test: displaying many languages at the same time Feb 07 23:12:32 brunowolff: which one? :) Feb 07 23:12:33 Kernewek · ភាសាខ្មែរ · Коми Feb 07 23:13:16 anyway Feb 07 23:13:25 brunowolff: guess your missing a font :) Feb 07 23:13:59 I try to keep them all installed, but there have been a lot of changes happening lately with font naming. Feb 07 23:14:03 the situation has been improving gradually since F8 and F11 will be even better Feb 07 23:14:24 I have to skip over rendering (pango, fontconfig, etc) Feb 07 23:14:33 next: Feb 07 23:14:36 * Input Feb 07 23:14:55 so there are two major system in Linux systems/dekstops Feb 07 23:15:23 xkb (from X windows) and the kernel keymaps Feb 07 23:15:33 those form "one" Feb 07 23:15:39 and the other is input methods Feb 07 23:15:48 for "complex language" input Feb 07 23:16:19 ie allowing one to input another language than one's keyboard is really designed for Feb 07 23:16:41 ex: scim for kanji ? or do you mean something else? Feb 07 23:16:45 and most kbds were only really designed for inputting ASCII or European extensions of that Feb 07 23:16:53 fenris02: yes exactly Feb 07 23:17:30 input methods are used primarily for so-called CJK (Chinese-Japanese-Korean), but also others Feb 07 23:18:12 and I also mean inputting say another language (eg Russian or Arabic) with a Western keyboard say Feb 07 23:18:31 that can be done earlier by switching xkb layout or using an input method Feb 07 23:18:41 but xkb can't handle CJK of course Feb 07 23:19:16 in fedora in addition to SCIM we have uim and ibus (which is the default in F11 Alpha) Feb 07 23:19:53 they all allow input in different languages and switching input language between them Feb 07 23:20:15 older input methods used XIM and were language specific (eg for Japanese only, etc) Feb 07 23:20:28 and there are backends Feb 07 23:20:31 scim replaced uim - didnt it? why the change to ibus now? (how is it better?) Feb 07 23:20:54 anthy for Japanese, libchewing for Traditional Chinese, libhangul for Korean, etc Feb 07 23:21:14 fenris02: not in fedora - uim hasn't been default Feb 07 23:21:31 I think debian/ubuntu may use uim for Japanese users Feb 07 23:22:02 fenris02: that is a bit of a long story but basically scim has various architectural limitations that we hope ibus will overcome Feb 07 23:23:31 best way is to try it - one nice thing about ibus is that it allows individual input methods engines for a language to be started and stopped at any time, which allows a finer grain of control and modularity Feb 07 23:24:02 for me the biggest problem with input is the disparity between xkb and input-methods Feb 07 23:24:33 and hope to see some unification at least the UI level some day (hopefully sooner than later), but it requires quite a bit of work Feb 07 23:24:57 So in the last minutes Feb 07 23:25:14 I wanted to talk about the L10n aspect of i18n Feb 07 23:25:33 but if there are any other requests or topics or questions we can also do those? Feb 07 23:25:56 <-- kaos01 has quit ("leaving") Feb 07 23:26:18 for many FOSS projects like GNOME, GNU, the keyword for l10n is gettext Feb 07 23:26:57 which deals and helps translations to manage their translations in .po files Feb 07 23:27:22 so most of those projects bundle their translations in their releases Feb 07 23:27:37 which is nice in that they are self-contained Feb 07 23:28:04 the downside is perhaps that is it harder to update, add or fix those translations Feb 07 23:28:28 since that basically needs a new upstream release, but it generally works ok if one can just wait for the next release Feb 07 23:28:37 the other approach is lang-packs Feb 07 23:29:18 which is taken by a lot of big projects: mozilla, openoffice, KDE, eclipse to name some Feb 07 23:29:24 Is there something that says to always pull in the language pack for specific languages? Feb 07 23:29:58 in their way l10n is separated from the main releases and so allows a little more flexibility but also potential lag Feb 07 23:30:14 brunowolff: in fedora? good question Feb 07 23:30:26 and an area I should have covered... :) Feb 07 23:30:27 comps Feb 07 23:30:45 currently the way to do that is yum groupinstall Feb 07 23:31:01 eg for Hindi support/langpacks run Feb 07 23:31:02 Yes. So that if someone always wanted say the fr language packs for things included without having to look to see if there was one. Feb 07 23:31:13 yum groupinstall hindi-support Feb 07 23:31:38 @french-support would provide the french langpacks, etc Feb 07 23:32:12 i think f11 yum will support @ abbreviations (ie yum install @french-support) or something like that Feb 07 23:32:27 ok I am into overtime now... Feb 07 23:32:41 Thanks so much juhp! Feb 07 23:32:42 but if you have any questions feel free to ask Feb 07 23:33:08 By the way I was missing a bunch of fonts on this machine and the one I was missing was covered once I installed them. Feb 07 23:33:21 nirik: ah well guess wraptime now? Feb 07 23:33:23 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Wrap up session Feb 07 23:33:34 brunowolff: cool Feb 07 23:33:44 yup. Feb 07 23:33:49 so thanks everyone and enjoy the fedora i18n! Feb 07 23:33:54 thanks juhp ! Feb 07 23:34:03 <-- Falstius has quit ("Leaving.") Feb 07 23:34:04 ok, I'd like to thank everyone for attending. Feb 07 23:34:07 (see our project page for how to contribute if you want to) Feb 07 23:34:29 if anyone has questions or comments, feel free to talk to me or herlo. Or bring them up now. ;) Feb 07 23:34:43 If you have ideas for talks, feel free to add them to the wiki. Feb 07 23:34:45 I try to at least install the language packs so that I can catch and report dependency and conflict problems. Feb 07 23:35:02 if you want to teach a class, you can add it to the wiki or talk with herlo or I. Feb 07 23:35:24 anyone have anything they would like to bring up or mention? Feb 07 23:36:12 Our next classes will be the first weekend of next month. Feb 07 23:36:19 <-- SM0TVI has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Feb 07 23:37:17 ok, thanks again everyone. Hopefully we all learned a bit. Feb 07 23:37:26 nirik: any long term plans to use SIP say with a whiteboard - maybe others have already asked? Feb 07 23:37:46 I like irc but sometimes voice might be interested too :) Feb 07 23:37:47 juhp: yeah, that has been discussed. We would love to do that at some point. Feb 07 23:37:52 ok Feb 07 23:38:18 hopefully we can look at using fedora talk for that. Feb 07 23:38:50 brunowolff: cool the @fonts group should contain all the major default ones, and then some individual lang groups contain more additional fonts for langs Feb 07 23:39:12 juhp, will it also exclude the ones not listed? Feb 07 23:39:41 fenris02: sorry? :) Feb 07 23:39:43 juhp, mine had a bunch of fonts and other oddpackages that pertain to languages i can neither read, nor speak Feb 07 23:39:52 ah Feb 07 23:39:54 no Feb 07 23:40:13 'yum groupremove @korean' wont work ? :) Feb 07 23:40:32 generally the fonts are harmless and diskspace is cheap these days, but you can remove unwanted fonts if you really want to Feb 07 23:40:40 --> Guest456 (i=KVIrc@c80-216-141-34.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #Fedora-Classroom Feb 07 23:40:42 --- nirik has changed the topic to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Next Classes coming up 2009-03-07 - See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for more information. For end user support /join #fedora Feb 07 23:40:55 fenris02: it should Feb 07 23:41:05 oh, will get logs up tomorrow of the classes today. ;) Feb 07 23:41:13 but it will also remove fonts from @fonts Feb 07 23:41:31 thanks nirik for organising the sessions :-) Feb 07 23:41:57 --- Guest456 is now known as SM0TVI Feb 07 23:42:06 fenris02: so you will be left with zero Korean fonts probably Feb 07 23:42:14 or so Feb 07 23:42:15 What I did to get the missing fonts was use yum to list available packages with 'font' in the name and then installed all of the noarch ones. Feb 07 23:42:41 I was missing 97. I think i have better coverage on my home machine though. Feb 07 23:43:11 anyway since F8 we have had the @fonts group and it should have a reasonable selection of default fonts to cover most languages available Feb 07 23:44:00 Warning: Group @fonts does not exist. Feb 07 23:44:31 nope. not in f8 nor f10 Feb 07 23:44:32 fenris02: the groups is called fonts Feb 07 23:44:45 ah! Feb 07 23:44:53 @fonts is an abbreviation (from kickstart) Feb 07 23:45:02 oic, my bad Feb 07 23:45:30 Are you sure it isn't 'font'? I just tried that and it seemed to try to install about a dozen fonts that were already installed. Feb 07 23:45:31 but as I mentioned I think f11 yum will support that abbreviation too - someone correct me if I am wrong Feb 07 23:45:50 brunowolff, plural worked here. both f8 and 10 Feb 07 23:46:23 % LANG=C yum grouplist | grep -i font Feb 07 23:46:43 it is all a bit confusing, not least thanks to PkgKit ;) Feb 07 23:46:48 I just tried that and it did the same thing; so either works. Feb 07 23:47:13 nice. type1 and 100dpi fonts are "legacy" Feb 07 23:47:57 yep Feb 07 23:48:25 * nirik nods. Feb 07 23:50:11 it is also confusing since yum accepts both the full length names (eg "GNOME Desktop Environment") and the short id's ("gnome-desktop") Feb 07 23:50:21 I have no idea why "font" works... Feb 07 23:50:58 IMHO it should not, but anyway Feb 07 23:51:54 anyway comps.xml is the authority for that Feb 07 23:53:06 actually seems current f10 yum already supports @ Feb 07 23:53:23 not here Feb 07 23:53:36 I have yum-3.2.20-5.fc10 Feb 07 23:53:58 yum-3.2.21-2.fc10.noarch Feb 07 23:54:06 eg sudo yum install @fonts Feb 07 23:54:23 3.2.21-2.fc10 and @ seems to work for me. Feb 07 23:54:36 juhp, interesting. I had done a groupinfo before Feb 07 23:54:42 works in rawhide too :) Feb 07 23:54:48 install @fonts works Feb 07 23:54:56 yep Feb 07 23:55:00 not list though, hmm Feb 07 23:55:03 groupinfo @fonts fails Feb 07 23:55:19 fenris02: anything with group is without @ :) Feb 07 23:55:28 For groupinfo you don't want the @, just the group name. Feb 07 23:55:36 info @fonts fails Feb 07 23:55:43 nod Feb 07 23:55:58 so still room for improvements :) Feb 07 23:56:21 I guess just install and remove but it saves some typing anyway :) Feb 07 23:56:29 * fenris02 nods Feb 07 23:58:31 Time for me to go home; its 0100 here. Bye everyone. Feb 07 23:58:45 thanks for coming brunowolff Feb 07 23:58:45 <-- brunowolff has quit ("Leaving")